I find this group when I search Yahoo group with keyword "freedom"; and I am very interested in the vision portrayed in this group.
But there are a lot of questions --
When people migrated to the West along the Oregon Trail in times past, there arose many disputes along the way. When a group of people dwell together, and when food/material is scarce, there are sure to be disputes. Therefore there must be some form of administration of justice. Also, people need education for their kids, therefore there must be schools (etc). People need other things, e.g. sales and purchase of land, .... (laws). In short, some form of social structure is necessary. In ancient China, king ruled. During the time of [Exodus], it was LORD rule through Moses. In the time of [Judges], it was somewhat "leaderless", where people went to the one who was expert in giving judgement, and who usually led them to wars. There are a lot of political systems besides these (Greek, Babylon, Persia/Media, Roman, Senate/Congress, House of Commons/Lords, Swiss, ...)
Wu Siu Yan
(Note : someone suggested that liberty and the pursue of happiness be the starting point.)
It is absolutely crucial that we follow the guidance of our inner voice, which Christians call the voice of their holy spirit, and which most atheists call either the voice of their spirit (which they don't consider "holy"), or their intuition, or their common sense. Hopeless intellectuals out of touch with what is inside themselves never succeed at anything except producing sickness, suffering, and death.
Yes, I agree. I call this "conscience". Some people take this as "voice not through ear", not knowing that implanted chip today is very small (5-micromillimeter microchip. The chips implanted in dogs upon registration can fit in the syringe used by doctors/nurses, and that is civilian chip. Military chip is much smaller), and people can transmit voice remotely using these chips, therefore deceiving and controlling people.
Yes, I also agree that we should not make distinction on people, whether they be Buddhists, Christians, Atheists, .... But I DO take one thing seriously, that is, whether they are willing to live by the laws/commandments of GOD,
such as no murder, no stealing, no adultery, no slander, no false witnessing against neighbour, beware of negligence causing harm to others, no false dealing in business transactions, ....
A people living together must agree to a set of rules, and I think GOD's laws/commandments are very simple and true that everyone should abide. Without laws, the group cannot last long, and quarrels, hatred, ... will gradually break up the group.
As for values, I take them as "honesty, uprightness, kindness, mercy, meekness, lowliness, purity of heart, slow to anger, forgiving, ...."; as for liberty, I know that liberty will not be given to a people who break LORD's laws/commandments. A group cannot stay together if "love" is not the core value -- the love we had towards our childhood friends when we were very young. Only with this love, and the willingness to keep GOD's laws/commandments would a group be able to stay together, face difficulties, face attacks from outside forces too great for them. I think this should be the starting point.
Wu Siu Yan
>Hi again, Wu!
You would probably enjoy reading, and some of your questions might be answered by, "The Spiritual Basis of Liberty." Here is the web address:
I am a Christian, and I believe in the existence of A GREAT SPIRIT, the creator.
Since I am a thing created, I compare myself to a computer. I have "hardware" which is inferior to that of an elephant, and I have "software", which is superior to that of a pig. But all my "hardware" and "software" are designed and created and given to me by GOD.
The spirit inside me is a "software". A person, if he/she repents and believes that Jesus is GOD in flesh, GOD in human form, the condescension of GOD, will be given another "software", the Spirit of TRUTH.
I had a quick look at the article you cited.
I don't know if "Athens", the Greek's philosophical thinking, has something to do with the author's view. But it appears to me that the author does not attribute all things to GOD.
I do believe in GOD, my Father in Heaven, therefore I would give heed to GOD's teachings in the Bible. Therefore I take all forms of Government as man-made, except that created by GOD, and that GOD-made form of Government has been revealed to us in [Genesis] to [Deuteronomy], the 5 books of Moses.
In the 5 books of Moses, GOD revealed to us His laws/commandments, his ordinances and statutes (which deal with land laws, land sales, festivals, inheritance law, rules of cleanliness, ....). (I have explained in much details the laws/commandments/ordinances/statutes of GOD in my group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/God_Jesus_teachings posts 1 to 370).
Since GOD is the Creator, He has every right to make rules, just as the founder of a Corporation has every right to make rules, and to punish/fire an employee who disobeys. GOD has set up angels, invisible policemen, to administer His laws. Those who keep the laws/commandments will be blessed, and those who break them, will be cursed. Freedom and liberty will not be given to a people who break GOD's laws/commandments, and that is why we see liberty gradually eroded away.
A group without a social structure, without a true perspective as to the world, can hardly survive in the long run (just as the Greeks did not survive long before the Romans). That is the reason that I think, if this "free state project" is to succeed, it must be a godly one, that its members must be willing to keep the laws/commandments of GOD, and love one another, just as Jesus taught us "to love one another". (Buddhists, .... etc. may not acknowledge the existence of GOD, but I think that doesn't matter, as long as they are willing to keep the laws/commandments of GOD.)
Wu Siu Yan
As I look around, I see liberty lovers making mistakes all the time, sabotaging the overall effort all the time, and I do speak up and address mistakes as I hope you would. But at the same time I know with perfect assurance that all the mistakes in the world cannot keep LIFE and LIBERTY from ultimate success.
Therefore, you can surrender all judgement and forgive us for finding our way in our own time, wouldn't you say?
It is because I think Rockies is the best place of survival, also a best place for a free state, that I care. Also I wish you success, not failure.
I am 54 today, and have seen the world, and have some experience which I think could help, therefore I wrote them.
I am not imposing my views on you (but inwardly I hope you would listen). Experience is expensive, and one may never have a second chance. To start wrong is very costly, even more so when some powerful forces are watching and planning for your destruction.
As to the views of life, I believe that life is a "probation", a time for GOD to see if we are qualified for eternal life. A person who lives like Jesus, doing only what is right in the eyes of GOD, even at the peril of death, will have eternal life, will have a place in the New Heaven and New Earth (the present earth will wear out of its resources one day), where lion/tiger/snake will not hurt, and fruit trees will not fail to bear.
Anyhow, judgement will be on all of us, whether today or in the Last Day, and we must account for our actions.
I will disturb the group no more, but be a lurker and watch (though I may occasionally jump in with some opinions).
Wu Siu Yan
A person cannot seek only his own comfort and living, he must care for his fellow citizens too, he has social responsibilities.
GOD said of the ancient Israelites : "Woe to those who lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat lambs from the flock, and calves from the midst of the stall; who sing idle songs to the sound of the harp, and like David invent for themselves instruments of music; who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the finest oils, but are not grieved over the ruin of Joseph! Therefore they shall now be the first of those to go into exile, and the revelry of those who stretch themselves shall pass away." [Amos 6:4-7]
GOD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in the past, and what did GOD say of them? GOD : "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it." [Eze 16:49-50]
If a group only seeks for itself, and not for all, the group is sure to fail, it will not succeed. Only if it fulfills all social obligations, keep the laws/commandments of GOD, do things right in the eyes of GOD, would receive blessing from GOD, and succeed.
Wu Siu Yan
P.S. I will be a lurker after this, sorry to have posted one more. I still will jump in occasionally.
America is a special land, and LORD has a special purpose for America. The following was written more than 2000 years ago,
Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
(Note : 1. "him" above means "GOD".
2. Commandments are the commandments of GOD in the books written by Moses, in the Old Testament.)
When the Puritans arrived in America in Mayflower, they were highly godly people.
Those who fought for independence, and wrote the Constitution, were godly people too.
Many people fled from Europe (and other places of trouble) and sought refuge in America, and many of them were godly people too.
When I was young, (I live in Hong Kong where many American companies set up factories in the 60s, e.g. NCR, Motorola, Fairchild , Ampex, ...) American thinking influenced Hong Kong a lot. The precept "What is right, not who is right", I learned from the Americans. In general, the precepts practised by the Puritans influenced HK a lot (and the world). Also, at that time, Americans donated lot of material to Hong Kong -- flour, milk-power, oil ... (Hong Kong was flooded with refugees from China).
America fought the two world wars, where herself was not a victim of invasion. America helped China during the Japanese war ("Flying Tigers" were volunteer American airmen).
But now America is godless -- sodomy/Lesbian, "same sex marriage", adultery, divorce rate 50%, "American interests, American interests, American interests, nothing but interests" (and not "right/wrong in the eyes of GOD"), invasion of other countries to grab oil under a false pretext, while the whole population remain silent, which is tacit approval, and can be taken as partner of the same crime.
Free State project will not attract people, because of its godlessness.
Liberty will not be given to godless people, but slavery, harsh servitude to harsh masters.
Only a group resolute to follow the footstep of their forefathers, of the Puritans coming out of Mayflower, would walk resolutely in the laws/commandments of GOD, and the teachings of Jesus (Jesus was GOD in human form, condescension of GOD), would it attract people, and would be given freedom and liberty.
As about school, thanks to Le that children are best educated by staying as a group with their mothers around -- an idea which I have never thought of.
Then I think of the people in the Pacific Islands, and the America Indians. They have/had their children educated this way.
However, for a group of strangers (mothers) gathering together is not easy. That means they have to share kitchen facilities, and may also have to share their food. This couldn't be, unless they all have a common moral belief, i.e. they are brothers and sisters in Christ, loving one another, caring for one another, like a big family. (I don't mean "communism". Under LORD's laws, private properties are respected, and if you destroy someone's property by accident, you have to make restitution. But LORD taught us to be generous in lending things (e.g. power tools, books, ...) to our neighbours (but those who borrow must return the things they borrow).
Wu Siu Yan
P.S. I found that some members here know the Book of Mormon well, this I am not against as I have read the BOM many times. But I think LDS clearly miss the doctrines of Jesus and was captured by Secret Combination (read the books by the Whitmers, and you will know). I think Christian should take BOM as what Lehi, Nephi(s), Alma(s), Helaman, ... DID; and forget the "doctrines/covenants" introduced by JS who wrote them after his fall, or by the Secret Combination who captured LDS (D&C is not of GOD).
(Note : I wrote the following post after some member suggested using current marketing methods; also seem to favor Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Karl Marx.)
Gandhi was assassinated. But it was GOD who killed him.
Martin Luther King patterned after Gandhi, and adopted the same tactics, and he was assassinated too. Also, it was GOD who killed him through the hand of others.
What GOD sees is that whether we walk within His laws/commandments; not our accomplishment.
(*) Law of GOD and His commandments
Karl Marx indeed changed much of the world, but is it for good ? The Chinese communists rooted out Confucius in the Cultural Revolution, making millions suffer -- result of Karl Marx (not to mention the people who died in Russia, in Cambodia, ...)
(*) Analect of Confucius
There is one and only one perfect man, who is GOD in human form -- the condescension of GOD, and that man is Jesus. We need to search for no other.
All who listen not to the teachings of Jesus, which are the teachings of GOD, will end in destruction. Jesus will be the plummet in Judgement Day.
(*) Teachings of Jesus
One day, every one of us will stand before the Judgement Seat of GOD, and to give account of what we do in this life. It is not how much we have accomplished, how big an empire we have built, .... but whether we behave like Jesus -- walk in the laws and commandments resolutely, meek and submissive to the Will of GOD, doing only what is right in the eyes of GOD, even onto death (and endure to the end).
In times of old, in Israel, David had several chances to kill Saul. But David never put forth his hand to destroy Saul. David waited for GOD. It was GOD who set up king/nation, and it should also be GOD who terminates king/nation. David waited for GOD, and GOD did kill Saul and his sons through the hand of the Philistines and gave the kingdom to David, but only after many years.
It is of utmost importance that we wait for GOD, and in the meantime, do what is right in the eyes of GOD, which include fulfilling our social responsibilities in caring about the moral welfare of all. If you care not the sins of the people -- sodomy/lesbian/divorce/adultery ...., but care about only building a free state, you will never succeed. Moreover, if you break GOD's laws/commandments in your rush of building a free state, the hands of GOD will be against you.
If GOD is pleased with us, GOD can effect changes.
One must never use worldly tactics -- success may seem to come (Emperor Qin who built the Great Wall in China died shortly after he won over all China; King Nebuchadnezzar died shortly after he won over many nations. GOD can terminate the life of any of us in one second.)
All acts must be lawful and right in the eyes of GOD. All things must be conducted in a righteous way.
Yes, everyone of us want to live free, but GOD only promises freedom to those who walk His laws/commandments. Ancient Israelites were slaves to the Babylonians for 70 years, and it was GOD who made them become slaves because they broke His laws/commandments and would not repent. GOD made the sky and all its stars in one day, GOD can do all things, but not us. We are made from dust.
Wu Siu Yan
(Note : After I posted "Land of Liberty", the moderator said that the group was not for evangelical purposes, and evangelical posts would deter people from joining the group. When I found my post "WAIT FOR THE LORD" deleted, I became angry, and left the group)
I have written the post "WAIT FOR THE LORD", but it was deleted -- the moderator does not like it.
How would a project succeed if THE GREAT SPIRIT does not bless it ? How could a project work if people are not attracted to their Creator, their Heavenly Father ? How could the moderator of this "freedom" group ban discussions of GOD, THE GREAT SPIRIT ?
If my guess is not wrong, the moderator is probably a native; and natives do not know, but we outsiders know, that the GOD of natives was THE GREAT SPIRIT, which is the same as "GOD/LORD" of the Christians/Catholics, or "Allah" ("the Great Shepherd" of the Muslims), or "High king in Heaven (or simply Heaven)" of the Chinese.
Since the moderator deleted my post, I think I have no reason to remain.
To the moderator, your blood be onto your head, and I am free of your blood. One day, you will know the power of the GOD of your fathers, THE GREAT SPIRIT, and you will never despise His laws/commandments.
I am leaving this group.
Wu Siu Yan