Jesus died at the age of 33,
a tragic death on the cross

Jesus faced persecution, many people sought to destroy him, and finally they succeeded and nailed him to the cross.

Jesus left behind an example, that people should only do what is right in the sight of GOD, even at the peril of death.

Click to know about,

  1. Main Teachings of Jesus

  2. Other Teachings of Jesus

  3. Law of GOD and His Commandments

  4. Hymn




GOD resurrected Jesus and Jesus is now in heaven





Dear Mormons/Ex-mormons,

The followings are my posts to the talk-group,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Book-Of-Mormon-Truth/

Wu Siu Yan


Content

  1. (*) JUSTICE EXISTS?
    (*) RE : JUSTICE EXISTS?
    XXX replied that Book of Malachi, as dictated by Jesus to the Nephites, was meant to us, people in the New Testament too. I agree with his view.
  2. Plain and Precious Things (1)
  3. Plain and Precious Things (2)
  4. The reasons why I think D&C is false
  5. 2 meanings "LINE UPON LINE, PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT"
  6. (*) Authors of Book of Abraham, Book of Moses ??
    (*) RE : Authors of Book of Abraham, Book of Moses ??
    XXX replied that he believed both books were true as they were revealed to Joseph Smith. The following is my reply, stressing the importance of "What is right and not who is right"

    (*) RE : Authors of Book of Abraham, Book of Moses ??
    XXX replied that he believed Book of Abraham to be a fraud, but that Book of Moses was true. He talked about the "restoration of the Bible"
  7. Islam
  8. Dream
  9. XXX said that his Restoration Church used Bible, BOM as well as a "Restored Doctrine and Covenants". I expressed my opposition.
  10. DO CHRISTIANS NEED MANY BIBLES ?
  11. COVENANTS OF LORD
  12. DOCTRINES OF JESUS
  13. PRIESTHOOD
  14. In another talk-group, one person asked several questions, e.g. "if God is almighty, and omnipotent, why can't He destroy the Devil? Why allow him to keep doing his stuff?" etc. Here are my answers.
  15. The friend who never fails you
  16. The Reason Why LORD revealed the Book of Mormon to us in the 1800's
  17. The Political System of the Nephites was not that of LORD's
  18. Everyone must be allowed to exercise his/her own freewill. Everything should be voluntary in a Church
  19. DO WE NEED PROPHET EVERY NOW AND THEN?
  20. Secret Alliance (or Secret Combination)
  21. Do we need prophets in every generation, after Jesus has come ?
  22. XXX as well as me think that Bible contains all the teachings of LORD and of Jesus
  23. Posts relating to "prophets" (1)
  24. Posts relating to "prophets" (2)
  25. Posts relating to "prophets" (3)
  26. Posts relating to "prophets" (4)
  27. Posts relating to "prophets" (5) "Leadership from Modern Day Prophet" Vs. "What is right and not who is right"
  28. Posts relating to "prophets" (6) (Contradictory Teachings to those of LORD/Jesus from any prophet are not acceptable)
  29. STANDARD TEACHINGS FOR MANKIND
  30. [*] MORMONS, SHAKE OFF HISTORICAL BURDENS !
    [*] A member said we could learn many historical lessons from history, and my reply
  31. LORD's Laws, as delivered to Moses, is FINAL
  32. BIBLE AS THE PLUMMET
  33. Danites, "Destroying Angels"
  34. Reasons why I think Muslims were Christians
  35. The following are my posts to Christian-Muslim talkgroup
    1. "Mercy" in Bible Vs. "Mercy" in Quran
    2. "Integrity" in Bible Vs. "Integrity" in Secret Alliance
    3. "Historial Lessons" in Bible Vs. "Historial Lessons" in Quran
    4. Fate of Islamic Countries, of Muslims
    5. Keeping the Laws is simple
  36. Papyrus - Book of Abraham
  37. The followings are my posts to Christian-Muslim Talkgroup
    1. Do to others what you wish others to do to you
    2. Do I like being lectured ?
    3. The Main Theme in the Bible Vs. The Main Theme in Quran
    4. LOGIC
    5. Direct Source Vs. Secondary Source
    6. DISCUSSION VS. QUARRELS
    7. True Christian Vs. False Christian
    8. Christian must stand by the standard of Jesus, of LORD
  38. WORK FOR IT, WAIT FOR IT
  39. Why the Early MOrmons were persecuted
  40. Jesus is the Last Prophet
  41. Bible is the eternal plummet that all teachings must be measured up to be accepted
  42. No even one Achan, one law breaker may be allowed in a congregation, how much more the "Danites", those lawless Secret Alliance in a church, would affect the whole church
  43. About Blaspheming the Holy Spirit
  44. Standard Ways used by Chinese Christians to distinguish between Holy Spirit and Devilish Spirits who pretend to be the Holy Ghost


Re: JUSTICE EXISTS?

About Book of Malachi, Lord Jesus expressly dictated that to the Nephites again in the Book of Mormon. Just as BOM revealed to us that Jesus came to fulfil the Law, and everyone of us have to fulfil the law too. Therefore in Malachi, LORD again reminded us of that fact.

LORD rules the universe with his Laws, just as the Governments do.

Wu Siu Yan


The plain and precious things (1)

  1. Sermon on the Mount

  2. Other teachings of Jesus

  3. Laws and Commandments of LORD

Wu Siu Yan


The plain and precious things (2)

After Jesus came, the old rituals of sacrificing the lamb/ram/ox are no longer needed - these were a day to day reminder to the people of Israel that we should be meek and pure as a child, submissive to whatever our Father in heaven would impose onto us (and never take vengeance with our own hands, for that breaks the Laws). Now that Jesus patterned/offered himself after the lamb/ram/ox that were sacrificed, the old rituals are not needed. (Instead Jesus taught us a lot of new things, e.g. Sermon on the Mount, .... and we have to observe them, and Jesus' words will be our judge in the Last Day.)

But the precepts in Law - "justice, mercy, faithfulness" must be fulfilled. Previously we lack the "software" to do good, our "software" was that inherited from Adam. Now that we have the "software" of Jesus - submissive and obedient onto death, holding fast the teachings/commandments of LORD, and did nothing against TRUTH. With this software, we are able to fulfil the Law, and indeed every Christian must work hard towards fulfilling the righteousness in Law.

All commandments and physical rules are not mandatory now. The elders in Jerusalem pointed out that only 4 : (1) eat no blood (2) eat no strangled animal (3) eat not food sacrificed to idols (4) no unchastity - must be observed. But as LORD has written for us so many Laws (Torah), they are very good to our health and spirit. For example, I still rest one day per week, one week per 6 months, but not necessarily on Sabbaths, on 14-21 First Month, 15-22 Seventh Month.

We must fulfil the Law in order to pass the judgement in the Last Day.

Ever since Paul, Sermon on the Mount and the other teachings of Jesus were neglected. I think LORD GOD wish to show us that love alone can accomplish many things. Now that all the churches are what was described in the Book of Mormon, unmindful of LORD's commandments, therefore I think we Christians should do something to revert this. Nearly all churches teach the philosophical talk of brother Paul, e.g. no works needed, salvation is grace, not works (twisted its real meaning to throw away all the commandments, even the 10 commandments)

Please read my webapge titled "Love Enough ? No Commandments Needed ?"

Also, I think that if we train new believers in (1) Laws and Commandments of LORD (2) Sermon on the Mount (3) Other teachings of Jesus (4) Meaning of Baptism (5) Hymn, I think we can train new believers much quicker than the "preachings" in the churches nowadays. (These are introductions, much like a company would train new comers by sending them to company camps for a few days. They still have to study the Bible, Book of Mormon themselves)

Wu Siu Yan


The reasons why I think D&C is false

The feeling that something is wrong indicates troubles

When Dorothy Anne Seese was young, her father put her in a LDS Church. When she read "Doctrine and Covenants", a book written by Joseph Smith, claiming to be revelation from the Almighty LORD, her spirit was troubled. She thought something was wrong with it. She later left the Church and studied the Bible herself, was convinced and became a Christian.

When I read "Doctrine and Covenants", I have the same feeling of unease as she did.

Because that book claims to be the revelation of LORD, I dared not say that book was false at first, lest I offended the Almighty LORD, who created me and gave me life and who will judge me in the Last Day. For a whole night, my spirit was troubled, I thought over that again and again, and finally, I concluded that that book is false, and I have written a webpage about it,

The reasons why I think "Doctrine and Covenants" of LDS is false

Wu Siu Yan

(P.S. I am not an ex-Mormon. I have never been a Mormon. I am a Chinese living in Hong Kong. I became a Christian in 1966 when I read Sermon on the Mount accidentally. I read the BoM accidentally, when I was doing some Internet Search. I read the First Book of Nephi online, and later got one copy from LDS. I have read BoM from cover to cover 4 times now. I rejected LDS when some of their missionaries in Hong Kong forced me to accept the precept of "Modern Day Prophet" - robbing me of my right to exercise my judgement and my own freewill. The essay "The reasons why I think D&C of LDS is false" was written after that unsettling night of unease. Some months later, I happened to read brother David Whitmer's "An Address to All Believers in Christ". I also read John Whitmer's book after he took over the task of historian from Oliver Cowdery.)


LINE UPON LINE, PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT

It first appeared in [Is 28:11-13],

Nay, but by men of strange lips and with an alien tongue the LORD will speak to this people, to whom he has said, "This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose"; yet they would not hear. Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. [Is 28:11-13]

Next it appeared in [2 Nephi 28:30]

For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. [2 Nephi 28:30]

My understanding of these two verses are :

  1. [Is 28:11-13] means we mustn't add to the Laws and Commandments of LORD (Torah), or else we would not enter His rest.

  2. [2 Nephi 28:30] means Book of Mormon, or possibly in the future, Books from the Lost Tribes, or the plates taken away from Laban by Nephi, or the large plates/small plates ... will come out. All these will add to our understanding.

THE MEANINGS OF THESE TWO ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT, though the wordings are the same.

Wu Siu Yan


Authors of Book of Abraham, Book of Moses ??

I have two questions :

  1. Do you think the author of "Book of Abraham" was Abraham himself?

  2. Do you think the author of "Book of Moses" was Moses himself?

My answer to (1) is No, and to (2) is Yes.

I hope to hear more views here.

Wu Siu Yan

~~~~~~~~~~~

[Click to read The reasons why I think the Book of Abraham is false]


Re: Authors of Book of Abraham, Book of Moses ??

Do you think we should follow "What is right and not who is right" ?

Wu Siu Yan



"What is right and not who is right" means we should not accept something simply because it comes out of the mouth of a famous man (or a prophet), it also means we should not reject something simply because it comes out of the mouth of a man of low standing.

It means "truth and truth only", and it is the criteria we use whether to accept something or reject something.

Wu Siu Yan


Re: Authors of Book of Abraham, Book of Moses ??

I have the same conclusion too. Book of Abraham is false (author was not Abraham), and Book of Moses is true (author was indeed Moses).

But I think we should NEVER change the Bible. And trust in LORD, that as He brought forth the Bible in the present form, we should retain it to eternity.

Part of "Book of Moses" is missing in the Bible. I think LORD did this on purpose, much as LORD moved the heart of Alma not to let the people read the Jaredite plates before Jesus was crucified.

[Alma 37:29]
Therefore ye shall keep these secret plans of their oaths and their covenants from this people, and only their wickedness and their murders and their abominations shall ye make known unto them; and ye shall teach them to abhor such wickedness and abominations and murders; and ye shall also teach them that these people were destroyed on account of their wickedness and abominations and their murders.

There are many valuable books, like that of "Book of Enoch (1)", "Book of Enoch (2)". But all these are not suitable for new believers. Including them in the Bible will only confuse new believers. After they have walked in the path of LORD/Jesus for many years, in its due time, LORD will lead them read those books. And LORD can.

Moreover, many books carried away by Lehi (e.g. Book of Zenos, Book of Zenock, other prophet books missing in the Bible but in Laban's plates) will come out in LORD's due time, but again, I think, we mustn't add those to the Bible. They will be valuable reference books to those who love LORD and Jesus, but never to new believers. Bible should remain unchanged to eternity.

Wu Siu Yan


Islam

After the September 11 incident, I became interested in Islam. And I downloaded a copy of Quran from

http://www.jannah.com/download/articles/quran.html

If you have read Book of Enoch (1), and Book of Enoch (2), and have read "Book of Abraham", "Book of Moses", and wish to know more about Islam, I suggest you read Quran, from cover to cover. Though it would be quite tedious to read it from cover to cover, you could gain great understanding of the Islam religion if you do so.

Wu Siu Yan


[My webpage on Islam]


A Post that reflects my thinking of against using D&C

Hi XXX,

Yes, I know your church has another restored D&C, I would appreciate if you would tell me site where I may download, or read online.

Have you read David's Whitmer's "An address to all believers of Christ" ?

I totally agree with brother David Whitmer's view in his book : build the church on Bible and Book of Mormon only.

Have your read my webpage

The reasons why I think "Doctrine and Covenants" of LDS is false

What is your opinion about it? All comments and views are welcome.

Wu Siu Yan


DOCTRINES OF JESUS

I think the teachings of LORD and of Jesus are already in the Bible. BOM only adds to our understanding of the Bible, it adds NOTHING NEW.

The doctrines of Jesus are already in the Gospels (of Matthew, Luke, John), why do we need more?

Wu Siu Yan


PRIESTHOOD

Oliver Cowdery : " ... The Lord, who is rich in mercy, and ever willing to answer the consistent prayer of the humble, after we had called upon him in a fervent manner, aside from the abodes of men, condescended to manifest to us his will. On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the veil was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the gospel of repentance! -- What joy! What wonder! What amazement! While the world were racked and distracted--while millions were groping as the blind for the wall, and while all men were resting upon uncertainty, as a general mass, our eyes beheld--our ears heard. As in the "blaze of day;" yes, more--above the glitter of the May Sun beam, which then shed its brilliancy over the face of nature! Then his voice, though mild, pierced to the center, and his words, "I am thy fellow servant," dispelled every fear. We listened--we gazed--we admired! 'Twas the voice of the angel from glory--'twas a message from the Most High! And as we heard we rejoiced, while his love enkindled upon our souls, and we were rapt in the vision of the Almighty! Where was room for doubt? No where: uncertainty had fled, doubt had sunk, no more to rise, while fiction and deception had fled forever!

But, dear brother think, further think for a moment, what joy filled our hearts and with what surprise we must have bowed, (for who would not have bowed the knee for such a blessing?) when we received under his hand the holy priesthood, as he said, "upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer this priesthood and this authority, which shall remain upon earth, that the sons of Levi may yet offer an offering unto the Lord in righteousness!"

Please note that the angel addressed himself, "I am thy fellow servant".

Long before that, in the Bible, in [Isaiah 66:20-21]

LORD : "... And they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their cereal offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. AND SOME OF THEM ALSO I WILL TAKE FOR PRIESTS AND FOR LEVITES, says the LORD." [Isaiah 66:20-21]

Also, in [Malachi 3:3-4]

LORD : "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years." [Malachi 3:3-4]

When Jesus was on earth, he washed the feet of his 12 disciples (including Judas who was to betray him). Jesus, being the unique creation of LORD, created with all LORD's characteristics, and created before LORD created Earth, did not equate himself to LORD, but was humble and meek and gentle and lowly. He taught us "servant to all, slave to all", "pure as a child, humble as a child". I cannot remember Jesus calling himself "high priest", though we know Jesus is.

The Jerusalem elders - Peter, John, James, ..... have they honored themselves with any titles, or did they call themselves "high priests" ?

I consider such titles "high priest/president" abominable. I favor a system much like that in Moses' time : SERVANT of 10, SERVANT of 100, SERVANT of 1000, chief SERVANT ("prince" is not the word I like. Governments use "civil servants" nowadays); Levites, priests, chief priest. People offer tithe (voluntary and NOT compulsory) to Levites, and Levites give tithe of tithe to the Priests. The political system, as well as the organization of Church, I prefer, is that in Moses' time - the organization LORD told Moses on Mount Sinai.

I have expounded more in my webpage "LORD'S POLITICAL SYSTEM IN SHORT".

My motto is "truth and truth only, What is right (in the sight of LORD) and NOT who is right." As my understanding is limited, my view will change if it can be shown to me that is TRUE.

Jesus : But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ. He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. [Mt 23:8-12]

And an argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest. But when Jesus perceived the thought of their hearts, he took a child and put him by his side, and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me; for he who is least among you all is the one who is great." [Luke 9:46-48]

Wu Siu Yan


XXX as well as me think that Bible contains all the teachings of LORD and of Jesus

I honestly don't think one needs more then the Bible. All Timothy had was the scriptures and in them he found eternal life, he learnt the things God wanted us to know.

I agree. The Bible contains ALL the teachings of LORD and the teachings of Jesus. What we need is do the teachings, not read and read and read and not do.

If we do the teachings, and have done that for a few years, then reading more (e.g. BOM, books by David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, Matrin Harris) will add to our understanding.

Wu Siu Yan


Posts relating to "prophets" (1)

Some member expressed that if there were prophet like that of Moses, like that of Joshua, he would follow him.

It is dangerous. Christian should follow LORD and LORD only, cleave to LORD and walk humbly with LORD, much like Enoch had done in the past.

Wu Siu Yan


Posts relating to "prophets" (2)

He reasoned this way : since Moses and Joshua truly followed LORD, following Moses and Joshua was by default the same as following LORD.

You do not get my point. Everyone had been looking forward to the coming of ONE prophet. Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lehi, Nephi, Mosiah, ... all looked forward to the coming of Jesus, and he was Almighty GOD appearing in human form, (condescension of GOD, or Emmanuel) because no one can do the miracles Jesus did other than GOD?

Everyone who truly believes in Jesus, and does his teachings as well as the commandments of LORD will be led by the Spirit of TRUTH in his heart. He needs NO ONE to lead him. Again I say, he NEEDS NO ONE to lead him (unless he fails to be - honest, upright, sober, firm in keeping the commandments of LORD and teachings of Jesus).

Did you read my previous post titled, "DO WE NEED PROPHET EVERY NOW AND THEN ?"

It was the folly of the Early Mormons, and it has been explained fully in David Whitmer's book "An Address to All Believers of Christ". It is what he meant by "trust in the arm of flesh - that is, trust in Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young or whosoever" Vs "trust in LORD - let no spirit other than the SPIRIT OF TRUTH lodge in our heart, and do the teachings of LORD/Jesus, and we will be guided".

David Whitmer pointed out one very important fact : Joseph Smith was a translator ONLY.

Jesus plainly said prophets STOPPED COMING after he (Jesus) has come, because his teachings (= TEACHINGS OF GOD) were available to all in the Gospels, and what everyone needs is to do those teachings diligently (violently).

Wu Siu Yan


Posts relating to "prophets" (3)

You must have read David Whitmer's Book, "An Address to All Believers in Christ". Please tell me the main theme of his book.

Wu Siu Yan


Posts relating to "prophets" (4)

Some member expressed that many other than Jesus had done mighty miracles, ...

In my previous post titled "Priesthood", I quoted verses from the Bible as as well an angel appearing to Oliver Cowdery to show that in the latter days, many will have such intense knowledge of LORD that they could serve as Levites (workers to LORD), and priests (one who knows LORD sufficiently enough to be an intermediate betweeen LORD and human) (NOTE : but the hearts of all those Levites and Priests should be the heart of a "servant", anything more than that is dangerous and will be subjected to temptations and possibly fall). Does that mean institutionalize "priesthood" by *man* is justified? (Priesthood is conferred by LORD, never by men.)

My central message in the previous post is "*** The teachings of GOD is completed after Jesus had come. The SPIRIT OF TRUTH came because Jesus was crucified and will be a free gift to believers of Jesus ***". Does this exclude believers performing miracles ? Does this exclude priests/Levites performing miracles ? Does this exclude no one after Jesus can be priests/Levites? Does that mean we can listen to no one else ? (Yes, we may listen to many, yet the final decision rests with us, and NO BLIND FOLLOWING, as we are responsible for all our actions in the Last Day.)

I would advise you read my webpage about LOGIC

[Click for short self-taught course in LOGIC]

For those interested in LOGIC, I highly recommend the books (1) Introduction to Logic (by Patrick Suppes) (2) From Frege to Godel (by Van Heijenoort, Jean. This detailed the developement of LOGIC)

Wu Siu Yan


Contradictory Teachings to those of LORD/Jesus from any prophet are not acceptable

XXXX,

In Quran, some "angels" who said that they were friends to LORD/Gabriel/archangels told ALL that

  1. Mohammed was the last prophet. The teachings of Quran (through Mohammed) were final.

  2. Jesus was only a prophet, a messenger, just like other prophets before him.

(My understanding is that Jesus is the Last Prophet, or rather, Jesus is the only Son of GOD, and teachings of Jesus = teachings of LORD. All who adds to/take away from Jesus' teachings are doing dis-service to LORD, and may even be said to be "anti-Christ".)

Quran introduced many CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS, e.g. Son of Noah was drowned, adultery law was changed, laws relating to theft was changed too (cutting off hand of thief instead of repaying double) ...

LDS teaches a prophet like Moses exists in all generations. New teachings (or even contradictory teachings to the Bible) may come from the mouth of all of them. Every Mormon is supposed to listen to that prophet much as every Israelites of old listened to Moses.

Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young introduced many contradictory teachings! (whether other prophets have introduced contradictory teachings to the Bible, I don't know.)

I hope you would know my position now : Jesus is the final prophet, any teachings contradictory to Jesus' are not acceptable.

From the mouth of Jesus,

Jesus : "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of GOD is preached, and everyone enters it violently. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void." [Luke 16:16]

Wu Siu Yan


[*] Quran Download
[*] My postings to Christian-Muslim talk group


STANDARD TEACHINGS FOR MANKIND

The Bible, which I firmly believe to be brought forth by the power of GOD, should be the standard teachings of LORD to all mankind. (Teachings of Jesus = teachings of LORD).

This should be the plummet that every teaching should be measured against.

I once asked a preacher in Hong Kong : "Suppose some spirit speaks to you, and claims himself to be the Holy Ghost, would you believe what he tells you ? "

He replied that

  1. Is that teaching contrary to Bible teachings ?

  2. Is your spirit troubled because of that teaching ? (those who really walk Jesus' teachings will feel unease over strange teachings, just as many early Mormons felt unease over "celestial marriage", or polygamy. To me, it is a devilish precept and not a godly precept.)

  3. Consult with your fellow brothers and sisters of Christ.



The first test is that the teaching must never be contrary to that in the Bible.

If people are to add to teachings in the Bible, where will be the end ?

LORD's teachings are very few. Brother Paul mastered one precept - LOVE, and he was able to to attain eternal life (I don't mean we can throw away other precepts of LORD, I only wish to show how little we need to attain eternal life.)

BOM, as well as other "Bibles from the Lost Tribes" which will come in their due times, must also pass this test : teachings in them agree to teachings in the Bible ?

(Question : All practices in BOM (of political system, of church), all teachings in BOM - do they agree totally with that in the Bible ?)

Wu Siu Yan

(P.S. My answer :

  1. BOM teachings - Yes.
  2. Political system - No.
  3. Churches - some deviations from the first church of Peter, James, John, ....)

MORMONS, SHAKE OFF HISTORICAL BURDENS !

I think Mormons/Ex-Mormons should shake off their historical burdens of Joseph Smith and LDS, and try to figure out : if they had the BOM in 420 A.D. (the time Moroni buried it), and not in 1830, what would they do to further the work of LORD ?

Wu Siu Yan

(P.S. Assumed they had the Bible as we know now in 420 A.D. and the BOM, what would they do to further the work of LORD ?)


A member said that we could learn many historical lessons from history

XXXX

Yes, I agree that we may learn a lot of historical lessons from LDS and the early Mormons.

What I mean is that the restoration church should take up what the Nephites and Moroni left in 420 A.D., and proceed on that basis to build up the Church of Jesus.

Wu Siu Yan


LORD's Laws, as delivered to Moses, is FINAL

(The following is my post to the Christian-Muslim talkgroup,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christian-Muslim

WHOM WILL YOU BELIEVE - MOSES OR MOHAMMED ?

  1. Moses said Noah, his 3 sons (Shem, Ham, Japheth) and their wives were all saved in the flood.

    Mohammed said the son of Noah was drowned.

  2. Moses' account of "Joseph and the wife of his Egyptian master" is different from that of Mohammed.

  3. Moses' account of his dealings with Pharaoh of Egypt during Exodus is different from that of Mohammed.

  4. Theft Law according to Moses is that thief repay double (e.g. A steals $1000 from B, then if A is caught, A should repay double, i.e. $2000 to B. Amount of fine is directly proportional to the amount one steals.)

    Theft Law according to Mohammed is cutting off the hand of thief.

  5. Adultery Law according to Moses (i.e. Both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death) is different from that of Mohammed.

  6. Many Laws in Torah are missing from Quran. GOD explicitly told Moses that no one should add to/delete from the Laws He delivered to Moses on mount Sinai. The Laws as delivered to Moses is FINAL. Mohammed changed many Laws, making the Laws according to Mohammed final.

  7. Moses was born thousands of years BEFORE Jesus. Mohammed was born some 600 years AFTER Jesus.

Whom will you believe ? Moses or Mohammed ?

Wu Siu Yan

(P.S.

[*] Quran download
[*} My webpage on Islam )

BIBLE AS THE PLUMMET

LORD would not leave us unguided, without any standard. Therefore I believe firmly that Bible contains the true words of LORD, and teachings of Jesus = teachings of LORD, and that every teachings must pass this test - they cannot contradict Bible teachings.

If we use the Bible as a plummet, then it is quite a joyful thing to compare teachings in this world :

  1. Teachings of Confucius ("Analect of Confucius", English Translation) which shape the Chinese for thousands of years,

    (Other important links to understand Chinese culture,

    1. 300 Poems from Tang Dynasty
    2. Ancient Chinese Poems (mainly from Chow Dynasty)

    )

  2. Teachings of Buddha

    The main precept of Buddhism is "loving kindness" which is definitely a godly precept. As for other Buddhist teachings, I recommend the book "Freedom from Fear" by Aung San Suu Kyi. Although her book dealt mainly with Burma, but she explained Buddhism very well in her book.

  3. Teachings of my great grandma

    Whether my great grandma had heard of Jesus or not I do not know, but her teachings agree very well with Jesus' teachings.

Wu Siu Yan


Danites, "Destroying Angels"

The following is my post in Christian-Muslim talkgroup when one member said that he believed the words told him in a trance, that both Quran and Bible were true.



XXXX,

You MUST exercise your own judgment in all things before acceptance.

Don't take words in a trance as TRUTH.

You should read the Quran from cover to cover, as well as the Bible from cover to cover, and if possible, other books of worth (e.g. Books of Enoch 1, Books of Enoch 2), then form the judgment yourself.

It is right that you set up a talk-group for Christians and Muslims to discuss things out. You can form better judgment if two sides present their respective arguments/reasons.

Could

  1. all the sons of Noah and their wives were saved in the flood

  2. son of Noah was/were drowned

be both TRUE at the same time?

Could 2 theft laws

  1. thief repay double to the victim. i.e. steal $100, repay $200. Fine is directly proportional to the offence. The more you steal, the more you will be fined. For the victim, the more one suffers, the more one will be recompensed.

  2. cut off hand of thief

be both valid at the same time?

There are many discrepancies between Bible and Quran, the most important difference is the attitude towards honesty and uprightness.

LORD demands absolute honesty and uprightness in the Bible. (Let your Yes be Yes, and No be No, anything more than this comes from evil. [Matthew 5:37])

Quran diluted this, and accepts oath (Jesus strictly taught us that we should not use oath to assert that we are honest, but speak the TRUTH at all times. [Matthew 5:33-37])

This is the main obstacles to progress for the Muslims. All scientific work and engineering work demand absolute honesty, and this was why England, Europe, US excelled in science and engineering in the 18th century.

The Muslims were Christians, but misled by Mohammed. Much like the Mormons are Christians, misled by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith claimed the book he wrote ("Doctrine and Covenants") was revelations from GOD. "Doctrine and Covenants" contains teachings contrary to Bible teachings, much like Quran contains teachings contrary to Bible teachings.

Joseph Smith as well as Brigham Young (2nd President of the Mormons after Joseph Smith) ruled with terror. There was a secret army under Joseph Smith, called "Danites", (another name "destroying-angels"), and under Brigham Young, this "Danties" would kill any who dared to oppose Brigham Young (please read the autobiography of John D. Lee, who was executed for his part in "Mount Meadow Massacre" - massacre of Mormons by the hand of American Indians when they were migrating towards Utah. John D. Lee held very high position among the "Danites". The "Danites" all swore an Oath of Silence - they were never to disclose the secret or else be put to death. They never talked and all carried the secrets to their graves. John D. Lee talked only after Brigham Young betrayed him, and knew he was to be executed. Even today, very few Mormons know the existence of "Danites".)

I think Mohammed ruled with terror too. It is even true today, that one member in this group said he dared not speak out because 1/3 of his school were Muslims.

Wu Siu Yan

(P.S. Not all people who built vast empire were righteous people, the King in China who built the Great Wall, Nebuchadnezzar who built the Babylonian empire, .... they were not righteous people. Many of them died shortly after they succeeded in building the empire.)


LOGIC
Learn logical deduction and inference in a short time! Quaranteed to know LOGIC after 2 weeks IF you work out ALL the exercises. Content is very short, only 10 pages (5 pages Exercise, 5 pages Answers)

History of the Mormon Church, by John Whitmer


The following is my post to a Christian-Muslim Talkgroup.



Reasons why I think Muslims were Christians

Question : Who was the main person responsible for converting the Christian countries of the West ?

Answer : It was Paul. Paul was not among the 12 disciples of Jesus, but Paul was a person of "intense love - steadfast love". His letters made up a large part of New Testament of the Bible.

Question : How about the other disciples of Jesus, (Jesus had 12 disciples - Peter, James, James(2), John, Philip, Thomas, Simon, Andrew, Matthew, Thaddaeus, Bartholomew, and Judas who betrayed him), did they convert any to Christianity ?

The Bible gave little information.

But they did convert many - those of the Muslims countries (my personal conclusion).

Paul preached along the Mediterranean coasts, Jesus disciples preached in Jerusalem, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, ....

From Quran, it can be seen that people in the 600's, in the Arabia Peninsula, already had knowledge of Mary, Jesus, Moses, ..... They would not have had knowledge of Mary and Jesus had there been no Christian preachers among them.

But Mohammed changed all that. Quran made many **SMALL** changes to the Torah, but added something that appealed to the Arabians - hospitality to strangers. Quran "diluted, distorted" teachings of the Bible, but not changed it completely.

Therefore if one is to read ONLY portions of Quran, most people only do that, Quran is VERY GOOD. For example - Worship only the Almighty GOD; Our life here is temporal, we should live a righteous life here to enter the hereafter; Graciousness to the poor/needy; Hospitality to strangers; Fair and just dealing .....

But if one is to read Quran from cover to cover, he/she would sure find the spirit in it troubling, because it comes from a crafty, deceitful spirit, not from an honest, upright spirit. If you do not believe me, try to read it cover to cover yourself ! Moreover, one will find many teachings in Torah missing - even the 10 Commandments of LORD are missing. Also, teachings of Jesus were excluded, yet Quran acknowledges Jesus to be a prophet.

Therefore, I appeal to Muslims, Awake ! Awake ! YOU ARE Christians misled, and you should read the teachings of Jesus, because Jesus WAS GOD CONDESCENDING TO EARTH TO TEACH US, AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS = TEACHINGS OF LORD. If you read not Jesus' teachings, and do not Jesus' teachings, you WILL HAVE NO PLACE IN THE HEREAFTER.

Moreover, you should read the Laws and Commandments of LORD (Torah).

Wu Siu Yan


[*] LOGIC - Learn logical deduction and inference in a short time! Quaranteed to know LOGIC after 2 weeks IF you work out ALL the exercises. Content is very short, only 10 pages (5 pages Exercise, 5 pages Answers)

QUARANTEE VOID IF YOU MISS OUT ONE EXERCISE. YOU MUST DO ALL THE EXERCISES.

[*] Quran Download


"Mercy" in Bible Vs.
"Mercy" in Quran

  1. "Mercy" in Bible

    "Mercy" in Bible means "kindness, compassion, graciousness" to the unfortunate, e.g. orphan, widow, poor, needy, afflicted, sick, in prison, ...

    We put ourselves in their shoes and extend material help to them, and comfort them with words to assuage their suffering.

    Jesus : "Do onto others what you wish others to do onto you."

  2. "Mercy" in Quran

    It means letting the sinner go!

    Therefore one may lie and would be let go in the name of "mercy".

    One may commit adultery and would be let go in the name of "mercy".

    Therefore one of the qualities of the name of LORD- "jealous against evil/iniquities" is completely changed. (Note : "hate evil", NOT "hate evil people".)

  3. "Mercy" in Buddhist teachings is the same as "Mercy" in Bible, though not as strong as that in the Bible - "feed the hungry, house the homeless, visit the sick, visit those imprisoned".

Wu Siu Yan


"Integrity" in Bible Vs.
"Integrity" in Secret Alliance

  1. "Integrity" in Bible means "honesty", "soundness in character", "wholesome" - those qualities pertaining to a decent/godly person.

  2. "Integrity" in Secret Alliance means NEVER BETRAY YOUR COMRADES, NEVER BETRAY THE SECRET OF THE ORGANIZATION!

    Therefore they would never tell the truth nor testify in court should some of their comrades be caught in crimes/evil acts.

    They would never reveal the secrets of the organization to outsider, or to press reporter, .... and would ALL carry their secrets to their graves.

    They consider this "integrity".

Wu Siu Yan

P.S. 1 :

This is irrelevant to Christian-Muslim discussion, but as I have posted "Mercy in Bible" Vs. "Mercy in Quran", therefore I quote another precept of Bible distorted.

P.S. 2: Secret Alliance

Secret Alliance usually originates from one person (or a group of persons) who lusts for power. Members who join Secret Alliance must swear an Oath of Silence, they must not betray the secrets to outsiders, or else they lose their lifes. They are highly organized and they protect one another right or wrong, not only minor crimes, but up to murders.

They share power, wealth together. It is the "They-Us precept" and not LORD's "One Law for All" precept.

They would resort to murder to achieve their purposes. Mr. Lee Kuan-Yew of Singapore talked about the Communist Party in Singapore in the 60's : "If you oppose them, they will fix you. When they fix you, they shoot you!". Please read [Book of Daniel, Old Testament, Chapter 7] for LORD's revelation on this.)


"Historical Lessons" in Bible Vs.
"Historical Lessons" in Quran

  1. "Historical Lessons" in Bible

    Bible contains the history of the Israel nation, from Abraham to some 30 years after Jesus (though the record for some period are scanty.)

    It records the rise and fall of kings, battles, the rise and fall of Babylonian empire, and the rise of Persia/Media empire.

    The Israelites use the "Bible" as their military manual, because there were so many battles recorded in the Bible that they many learn from.

  2. "Historical Lessons" in Quran

    None. All are some distorted teachings of LORD repeated again and again.



Wu Siu Yan


Fate of Islamic Countries, of Muslims

The early Muslims were Christians, those from the best tradition from Peter, James, Philip, Andrew, Matthew, .... (the disciples of Jesus).

Therefore their tradition perseveres, generation after generation. Even today, one can find the image of "Peter, James, Philip, ..." in some Muslims, though few in number. Bin Laden is one who carries with him some such image!

Because of this "tradition" and also people would read only "part" of the Quran, not all, the Muslim societies would generally be stable.

But the Laws in Quran makes changes to those in "Torah", especially the "Theft Law", there are many short-comings in Quran's Laws (complexity is one, compared with the simplicity of LORD's Laws).

(e.g. if one steals $1, his hand would be cut off. But if one steals $100 billion, his hand would be cut off. Is this justice ? Would you cut off the hand of your classmate because he steals your pencil ? Would you cut off the hand of your neighbour who steals your potatoes because he is poor ? Mostly only the poor would steal, and if you cut off his hand, how could he earn his living with only one hand ?

In "Torah", punishment is directly proportional to crime: repay double to victim. Moreover, if one is poor and steals, and has no money to repay, he would be sold as "slaves", and "slaves" in "Torah" is "contract work for 6 years", not the American's style of slavery. Thus he is secured for work and housing for 6 years. This is much more humane.)

Because of this deficiency in Justice, Muslim country could be stable should there be no wars, no natural disaster. But should there be wars, famine, and the social order be disrupted, murders and shedding of innocent blood would be common, among other minor crimes (Note : "shedding of innocent blood" is an extremely serious offence in "Torah", LORD might destroy the whole country because of this). The reason - they do not have "Ten Commandments" and other commandments to bridle wild behaviour.

Today is the year 2002, when the knowledge of human is quite advanced (e.g. Knowledge in Maths, in Science, in Engineering, .... , is quite advanced), LORD would demand the more.

The slovenly attitude of Muslims (e.g. oath, apathy to evil in the name of Quran's "mercy", lack of uprightness) are NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE TODAY.

Therefore Muslims MUST learn and keep the Laws and Commandments of LORD, and live by its standard.

Should they not do so, they would be oppressed year after year, by those strong countries who can send "cruise missiles/bombers" to bomb them from thousands of miles away, until they realize that LORD can no longer accept their standard, and that they MUST return and uphold the standard of LORD and of Jesus.

Nowadays, Internet is common. Muslims should read "Torah" (the first 5 books of Moses in Old Testament) and live by them (the moral part, not the ritual part, which are no longer needed because "Jesus" was "sacrificed".) Also they should read the teachings of Jesus (because Jesus is GOD condescending on Earth in human form).

They have no excuse if they do not do this. The Bible is everywhere, the internet is everywhere.

When they fully return to LORD, and keep LORD's standard ("Torah"), and Jesus' teachings ( = LORD's teachings), LORD would be merciful to them, and deliver them from their strong adversaries.

If they do not, they would be oppressed and oppressed, and struggle in vain. More struggle would only bring more oppression onto them.

Wu Siu Yan


Moses' "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy"

http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Genesis/index.html
http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Exodus/index.html
http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Leviticus/index.html
http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Numbers/index.html
http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Deuteronomy/index.html

King James' Bible

http://www.cforc.com/kjv/index.html

Keeping the Laws is simple

If you truly believe Jesus as the Son of LORD (a duplicate of LORD created by LORD to send down to earth) and repent of your past wrongs, you WILL be given a new heart, a new spirit. Promised by LORD.

This is grace, no work needed. And you will be able to fulfil LORD's Laws - all the requirements in "Torah" (the Moral part, not ritual part, the ritual part are not needed now because Jesus was "sacrificed") and you will be able to keep the Laws and Commandments of LORD, and not break them.

But if you trust Quran's teachings "bowing down to Mecca", "washing your hand and feet", "fast" .... to attain salvation to hereafter, you will NEVER attain it. The "software" inside you is still the "software from Adam", not the "software" of Jesus.

Quran is from Mohammed, not from Almighty LORD. LORD no longer tolerates Quran now.

Do not listen to the Christians nowadays : they say "salvation is grace, not work" and so they forget LORD's Laws, and do as their heart desire, totally unrestrained.

When they receive their due punishment, they will know that LORD rules the universe with His Laws. Moreover, punishment of believers is heavier than punishment of non-believers.

Therefore keep LORD's LAWS and Commandments, and Jesus' teachings, and you can, because you will be given a new heart, a new "software", (if you believe Jesus as the only Son of GOD), but still you have to keep them diligently.

Wu Siu Yan


Papyrus - Book of Abraham

I think Joseph Smith really did translate the Book of Abraham from papyrus.

Enclosed is the eye-witness account by Oliver Cowdery.

Truthfully translated doesn't mean author of if was really Abraham. I think the author was NOT Abraham.

It the Internet, some sites said that Joseph Smith translated from the Book of the Dead. I think there is really some papyrus of Book of the Dead, but what JS translated was not THAT papyrus. They are talking about different papyrus.

Wu Siu Yan

P.S.

(P.S. Source: Oliver Cowdery to Mr. Wm. [William] Frye, Esq., December 22, 1835, Huntington.

Kirtland, Ohio, December 22, 1835

Dear Brother in the Lord [William Frye]:

. . . Upon the subject of the Egyptian records, or rather the writings of Abraham and Joseph, and may I say a few words. This record is beautifully written in papyrus with black, and a small part, red ink or paint, in perfect preservation. The characters are such as you find upon the coffins of mummies, hieroglyphics and etc., with many characters or letters exactly like the present, though perhaps not quite so square form of the Hebrew without points.

These records were obtained from one of the catacombs in Egypt, near the place where once stood the renowned city of Thebes, by the celebrated French traveller Antonio Sebolo [Lebolo], in the year 1831. He procured license from Mohemet Ali, then Viceroy of Egypt under the protection of Chevralier [Chevalier] Drovetti, the French Consul, in the year 1828; employed 433 men four months and two days, (if I understood correctly, Egyptian or Turkish soldiers), at from four to six cents per diem, each man; entered the catacomb June 7, 1831, and obtained eleven mummies. There were several hundred mummies in the same catacomb. About one hundred embalmed after the first order and deposited and placed in niches and two or three hundred after the second and third order, and laid upon the floor or bottom of the grand cavity, the two last orders of embalmed were so decayed that they could not be removed and only eleven out of the first, found in the niches.

On his way from Alexandria to Paris he put in at Trieste, and after ten days illness, expired. This was in the year 1832. Previous to his decease, he made a will of the whole to Mr. Michael H. Chandler, then in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, his nephew, whom he supposed to have been in Ireland.

Accordingly the whole were sent to Dublin, addressed according, and Mr. Chandler's friends ordered them sent to New York where they were received at the customhouse in the winter or spring of 1833. In April of the same year Mr. Chandler paid the duties upon his mummies and took possession of the same. Up to this time they had not been taken out of the coffins nor the coffins opened.

On opening the coffins he discovered that in connection with two of the bodies were something rolled up with the same kind of linen, saturated with the same bitumen, which when examined proved to be two rolls of papyrus, previously mentioned. I may add that two or three other small pieces of papyrus, with astronomical calculations, epitaphs, etc., were found with others of the mummies.

When Mr. Chandler discovered that there was something with the mummies, he supposed or hoped it might be some diamonds or other valuable metal, and was no little chagrined when he saw his disappointment. He was immediately told while yet in the customhouse, that there was no man in that city, who could translate his rolls; but was referred by the same gentleman, (a stranger) to Mr. Joseph Smith, Jr., who continued [that] he possess some kind of power or gift by which he had previously translated similar characters. Brother Smith was then unknown to Mr. Chandler. Neither did he know that such a book or work as the record of the Nephites had been brought before the public. From New York he took his collection to Philadelphia, [Pennsylvania], where he exhibited them for a compensation. The following is a certificate put into my hands by Mr. Chandler, which he obtained while in Philadelphia and will show the opinion of the scientific of that city:

"Having examined with considerable attention and deep interest, a number of mummies from the catacombs, near Thebes, in Egypt and now exhibiting in the Arcade, we beg leave to recommend them to the observation of the curious inquirer on subjects of a period so long elapsed; probably not less than three thousand years ago.

"The features of some of the mummies are in perfect expression. The papyrus covered with black or red ink, or paint, in excellent preservation, are very interesting. The undersigned, unsolicited by any person connected by interest with this exhibition, have voluntarily set their names hereunto, for the simple purpose of calling the attention of the public to an interesting collection, not sufficiently known in this city." signed

John Redman Cone, M.D., E. H. Rivinius, M.D., Richard Harlan, M.D., J. Pencoat, M.D., Wm. P. C. Barton, M.D., Samuel G. Morgan, M.D."

While Mr. Chandler was in Philadelphia he used every exertion to find someone who would give him the translation of his papyrus, but could not satisfactorily, though from some few men of the 'first eminence' he obtained in a small degree the translation of a few characters.

Here he was referred to Brother Smith. From Philadelphia he visited Harrisburg, [Pennsylvania] and other places east of the mountains, and was frequently referred to Brother Smith for the translation of his Egyptian relic.

It would be beyond my purpose to follow this gentleman in his different circuits to the time he visited this place, the last of June or first of July, at which time he presented Brother Smith with his papyrus. Till then neither myself nor Brother Smith knew of such relics being in America. Mr. Chandler was told that his writings could be deciphered, and very politely gave me privileges of copying some four or five different sentences or separate pieces, stating at the same time, that unless he found someone who "could give him a translation soon he would carry them to London."

I am a little in advance of my narrative. The morning Mr. Chandler first presented his papyrus to Brother Smith, he was shown by the latter, a number of characters like those upon the writings of Mr. C. [Chandler] which were previously copied from the plates containing the history of the Nephites, or Book of Mormon.

Being solicited by Mr. Chandler to give an opinion concerning his antiquities, or a translation of some of the characters, Brother J. [Joseph] gave him the interpretation of some few for his satisfaction. For your gratification I will here annex a certificate which I hold, from under the hand of Mr. Chandler, unsolicited however, by any person in this place, which will show how far he believed Brother Smith able to unfold from these long obscure rolls, the wonders obtained thereon:

"Kirtland July 6th, 1835

This is to make known to all who may be desirous, concerning the knowledge of Mr. Joseph Smith, Jr., in deciphering the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic characters, in my possession, which I have, in many eminent cities, shown to the most learned; and from the information that I could ever learn, or meet with, I find that Mr. Joseph Smith, Jr., to correspond in the most minute matters.

Signed Michael H. Chandler

Traveling with and proprietor of Egyptian Mummies."

The foregoing is verbatim as given by Mr. Chandler excepting the addition of punctuation, and speaks sufficiently plain without requiring comment from me and it was given previous to the purchase of the antiquities, by any person here.

The language in which this record is written is very comprehensive, and many of the hieroglyphics exceedingly striking.

The evidence is apparent upon the fact, that they were written by persons acquainted with the history of the Creation, the fall of man, and more or less of the correct ideas of the notions of the Deity.

The representation of the Godhead -- three -- yet in one, is curiously drawn to give simply, though impressively, the writer's views of that exalted personage. The serpent represented as walking, or formed in a manner to be able to walk, standing in front of and near a female figure, is to me, one of the greatest representations I have ever seen upon paper, or a writing substance; and must go so far towards convincing the rational mind of the correctness and divine authenticity of the holy scriptures, and especially that part which has been assailed by the infidel community, as being fiction, as to carry away with one mighty sweep the whole atheistical fabric, without leaving a vestige sufficient for a foundation stone. Enoch's pillar as mentioned by Josephus, is upon the same roll. True, our present version of the Bible does not mention this fact, though it speaks of the righteousness of Abel and the holiness of Enoch--one slain because his offering was accepted of the Lord, and the others taken to the regions of everlasting day without being confined in the narrow limits of the tomb, or tasting death, but Josephus says that the descendants of Seth were virtuous, and possessed a great knowledge of the heavenly bodies, and that in consequence of the prophecy of Adam, that the world should be destroyed once by water and again by fire. Enoch wrote a history or an account of the same, and put into two pillars one of brick and the other of stone; and that the same were in being at his (Josephus') day. The inner end of the same roll (Joseph's record) presents a representation of the judgment. At one view you behold the Savior seated upon His throne, crowned and holding the scepter of righteousness and power, before whom also, are assembled, the twelve tribes of Israel, the nations, languages and tongues of the earth, the kingdoms of the world over which Satan is represented as reigning, Michael the Archangel, holding the key of the bottomless pit, and at the same time the devil as being chained and shut up in the bottomless pit.

But upon this last scene, I am able only to give you a shadow, to the real picture. I am certain it cannot be viewed without filling the mind with awe, unless the mind is far estranged from God; and I sincerely hope, that mine may never go so far astray, nor wander from those rational principles of the doctrine of our Saviour, so much, as to become darkened in the least and thereby fail to have that, to us, the greatest of all days and the most sublime of all transactions so impressively fixed upon the heart, that I become not like the beast, not knowing whither I am going, nor what shall be my final end . . .

Oliver Cowdery


Do to others what you wish others to do to you

The above is the "Golden Rule", the most famous teaching of Jesus.

Confucius has a similar teaching : "Do NOT to others what you DO NOT want others to do to you."

When one is being mal-treated and humiliated, either

  1. I hate being treated this way, I know how bad it hurts me, therefore I will never do it to others, lest they suffer the pain as I do.

  2. I know how bad it hurts me, therefore I will learn that and apply it to other people to make them feel bad.

Which will incur curse from LORD ? which will bring blessing from LORD ?

Wu Siu Yan

(P.S. "XXXX", did someone treat you badly that you were hurt and so you did the same to me, e.g. banning me or accusing me of many things ?)


Do I like being lectured ?

"XXXX" thought that I dislike being lectured.

No. I like listening to lectures. When I was in University of Hong Kong, there were occasionally visiting scholars, visiting research workers, .... and mostly they would give lectures free. I attended those as far as I could.

Outside commercial organizations would charge high fees for attending classes, then why should I not attend lectures when it were free ?

Would I feel angry (or humiliated) when being lectured on a topic I already know ?

No. I take it as a chance to revise the things I already know. I would thank the person for his time and effort to lecture me.

Jesus : "Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." [Matthew 18:2-4]

Wu Siu Yan

(P.S. "XXXX", show your courage by using your real name. Everyone here uses real name, except you. No one will hurt you unless you break the Laws of LORD. You may be harassed by your Muslim neighbours but this will be blessing in disguise to enable you to learn more, should there be harassment. Also, if you "lecture" me here and if it is of substance, I will listen.)


The Main Theme in the Bible Vs. The Main Theme in Quran

(A) Main Theme of the Bible

Bible may be said to be the history book of Israel.

There is one main theme that permeates throughout the Bible, and it is "Keep the Law => Blessing; Break the Law => Curse".

When the Israelites kept LORD's Laws, they were blessed and they prospered; but when they broke LORD's Laws, they were cursed - famine, invasion, plague, all sort of disasters.

Question : it is too difficult to keep the Laws of GOD to be blessed ?

No. It is extremely easy. Let us listen to what Moses said :

Moses : "For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it." [Deuteronomy 30:11-14]

It may be compared to download from the Internet. Just a click of a button and you download many softwares free.

If we have a heart for evil : we may download virus software from the Internet, and cause great troubles to others, (and consequently, to ourselves).

But if we have a heart for good : we may download many valuable software free, and we may give it to others as well. (I downloaded many useful programs from the Internet as well as many books, all free, including Quran and Bible.)

Therefore, if we want to be a good person; we simply pray to LORD, and LORD will give us "software" that we can do the good we want. On most occasions, even without our asking, LORD will send the "software" to us free, and without our knowledge.

On the other hand, if we want to do evil, be an wicked person; LORD too would give us "evil software" and we become a beast.

If you truly turn towards Jesus, believing him to be the Only Son of LORD, with 100% likeness of LORD, you will be given a new heart, free. And you can be a good person, and you can keep the Laws and Commandments and be blessed. (Keeping the Law is not burdensome, because LORD is merciful, would never be fault-finding, nor condemn the guiltless.)

Hence the main theme of the Bible is "return to LORD, keep His Laws, and be blessed"; or "depart from LORD, break His Laws, and be cursed".

(B) The Main Theme of Quran is Hereafter.

Quran does not emphasize the precept "Keep the Law => Blessing; Break the Law => Curse"

Quran does not emphasize ALL values of LORD - "kindness, mercy, graciousness, slow to anger, steadfast love, faithfulness, forgiving, jealous against evil/iniquity, justice, honesty, uprightness, humility, meekness, lowliness, righteousness, pure as a child, humble as a child, serving others (wash the feet of others), ... ". It emphasizes only some.

Quran places more emphasize on : fasting, bowing down towards Mecca, washing hands and feet, donation to poor, ... But all these cannot enable us to have a new heart, still the heart inherited from Adam (and Eve).



Which are true teachings of GOD, Bible or Quran, judge it yourself.

Wu Siu Yan


The following is my post to Christian-Muslim talkgroup, because some Christians there said that they did not believe the flood, and Jesus = GOD, the holy trinity precept

LOGIC

I think children of the age of 10 or so should be taught LOGIC. Mathematics is considered a basic training for educated people, and I think LOGIC should be one too.

LOGIC is not difficult, a 10 years old can easily master it.

Those who know logical deduction, logical inferences, could easily see,

  1. "I do not believe in Noah's flood" =>
    "Moses is a liar",

    because Moses said there was a flood in his book "Genesis".

  2. Someone who believes that "GOD = Jesus" =>
    ( "Jesus was a liar, because Jesus said that he was the Son of GOD",
    OR,
    "Father = Son".)

Your mind must not be so illogical as cannot see this.

Wu Siu Yan


LOGIC - Learn logical deduction and inference in a short time! Guaranteed to know LOGIC after 2 weeks IF you work out ALL the exercises. Content is very short, only 10 pages (5 pages Exercise, 5 pages Answers)

GUARANTEE VOID IF YOU MISS OUT ONE EXERCISE. YOU MUST DO ALL THE EXERCISES.


The following is my post to Christian-Muslim talkgroup, because one member thought that he knew more because he has read a lot of books on Islam (but he did not read Quran cover to cover), but I have read Quran from cover to cover, and did not read other books about Islam.

The following is my response.

Direct Source Vs. Secondary Source

During World War II, there was an intelligence officer under Winston Churchill. The work of him was to distil the reports from Europe, and make a summary to Churchill.

Churchill would not have this. He insisted that the officer pass him all the original pieces of information, and let him read them himself.

When Churchill read that the Germans transported all their tanks back to Germany (by rail), after their march into Hungary and Yugoslavia to subdue resistance, he immediately knew that the Germans were to invade Russia (the Germans would have left their tanks in Hungary etc. if they had no immediate need of them.) He telegraphed Stalin, yet Stalin believed him not, and thus suffered terribly when German surprised him in a sudden offensive.

I too, favour direct source and not secondary source. Therefore, when I read book, I choose to read books by "masters", e.g. "Serge Lang, Richard Courant, .... " in Maths. When I read book on Structural Analysis and Elasticity, I seek the books by "Timoshenko" - the topmost master in this field.

If I read books by others, who themselves learn from the masters, or from students of masters, I would be at a disadvantage. Therefore I learn direct from the masters.

Now I ask you a question :

  1. If you were to learn about the History of World War II, would you choose to read Churchill's memoir, "The Second World War", (who was prime minister and directed the war personally), OR

  2. read a book written by a General OR

  3. read a book written by a soldier OR

  4. read a book by one who has never fought the war, or was born many years after the War ??


I have read Churchill's 12 paperbacks of "The Second World War". You may try the direct source, or secondary source, and find out which will tell you more.

Next, I ask you, if you were to learn Confucianisum, which will give you more information

  1. read direct the book written by Confucius, "Analect of Confucius"

  2. or read the multitude of books on Confucianism.


Also, if you were to learn about Christianity,

  1. read the Bible direct OR

  2. read the many books discussing Christianity ?


Or, if you were to learn about Islam

  1. read the Quran direct, the direct words from Mohammed, OR

  2. read books by others discussing Islam (Has the author read the whole Quran himself ?)


Please try both approaches, and arrive at your own conclusion.

Wu Siu Yan


I shy away from direct confrontation in discussion, because I think if we are proud, we will fall, and fall into the traps by demons.

The following is my post to Christian-Muslim talkgroup,

DISCUSSION VS. QUARRELS

When I was young, I learned that I just couldn't convince a person by arguments, especially when my heart was lifted up in pride (i.e. "my argument is so superb that I could surely beat you down, making your speechless" kind of thought.) Such arguments would usually end in quarrels, if not fights. (ego Vs. ego = quarrel)

Also, I learn that "time" is an important factor. After some months, or some years, when the other person has gained more experience, it might be possible to convince him then.

Therefore I shy away from ">", ">>", ">>>", ">>>>", ">>>>>", ..... kind of discussion. I prefer topic by topic type of postings.

In academic journals, scientists and engineers would discuss things. They use the topic by topic type. Each posts his/her own view, supported by evidences and reasonings, and let others to judge and to post follow-ups. Each post is an independent essay by itself. This is the type of posting I prefer to use.

Wu Siu Yan


True Christian Vs. False Christian

Christian means follower of Christ, or Jesus.

Ask a Christian if he can recite the precepts in "Sermon on the Mount" ? the 10 Commandments ?

They are those who throw away all Laws and Commandments of LORD, and would leave two commandments,

  1. Love your neighbour as yourself,

  2. Love the LORD your GOD with all your heart/mind/soul.

But as

"love Jesus = do the teachings of Jesus",

"love LORD = do the Commandments and Teachings of LORD",

they would reject this too. Also "love thy neighbour" could be burdensome, and so they throw it away too, and leave only "LOVE".

By then, they can do all sort of sinful acts in the name of "love". The Nicolaitans practiced "free love, or free sex" in the name of LOVE. One may even rape a person, kill a person in the name of love, or believing that he/she loves him/her.

The Laws and Commandments of LORD are to stop such behaviour.

But they would say, "I am sure to be saved, because Paul plainly said that salvation was grace, not work".

Yes, the holy spirit, or the Spirit of Truth, is freely given to all who repent and believe Jesus to be the Only Son of GOD. And this does not depend on how many hours of social work, many much money donated to charity, how many days of fast, ....

But it does not mean "free of accountability", nor is it a license to all sorts of unrestrained act, thinking that LORD would not demand an accounting of them because Jesus died for them. LORD will.

But they do not so think, but think that Jesus' redemption is a licence to all unrestrained acts, they would gladly make more proselytes to share their "new discovery of freedom !", totally unrestrained behaviour and no accountability required by LORD!

A Christian said some thousands of years ago,

For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--

And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.

And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God -- he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish.

But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Wu Siu Yan


Christian must stand by the standard of Jesus, of LORD

Jesus said that those who do his teachings will be like one who builds a house on a rock, and fears no storm/wind; but those who listen, but do not do the teachings, will be like one who builds a house on sand, which collapses quickly when faced with wind or storm.

They are those who will be beguiled into wrong paths, yet know not. LORD's "Quality Control" system is much better than the "computerised automatic testing system used in Quality Control" in modern factories. Those who do not do Jesus' teachings MUST and WILL BE beguiled, yet know not.

Many "Christians" will think "Salvation is grace, not work" (twisted its real meaning), and that LORD will not require them to give an account of all their doings in the Judgement Day. False. LORD will demand an accounting.

Jesus is the plummet. Only person who has taken upon himself the name of Jesus (or the qualities of Jesus), i.e. one who acts like Jesus, will be saved. Jesus did only what was right in the sight of LORD even at the peril of death, and held fast LORD's commandments steadfastly.

AGAIN I SAY, JESUS IS THE PLUMMET, CREATED BEFORE LORD CREATED EARTH, BEFORE LORD CREATED HUMAN. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU. THOSE WHO ASPIRES TO ENJOY ETERNAL LIFE IN THE HEREAFTER, WHERE ONLY CHILDLIKE GOOD PEOPLE WILL BE GATHERED, MUST BE JESUS-LIKE.

Remember firmly Jesus' teachings : "And if any one will not recieve you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town." [Matthew 10:14]

This may sound cruel. But it is not. For if the other person simply rejects Jesus' teachings, and we, in the desire to save them, may either

  1. We lower our standard. Lower and lower it goes, until our standard falls so far short of LORD's standard that we die,

OR

  1. we weary ourselves to death in an effort to save him/her, while he/she just does not want to live a godly, holy life.

Hence Jesus gave us this teaching.

Moreover Jesus taught us the "parable of sower" [Matthew 13]. The teaching is true.

Therefore, to all those who listen not my words, I have nothing more to do with you, I would shake off any dust of you that clings to me.

"XXXX" repeatedly threatened me to ban me, therefore I think I should leave. And this is my last post.

To those who believe Jesus' teachings and do his teachings, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH will guide you to all truths. And if you keep the Laws and Commandments of LORD (moral part), which you are able to because of the Spirit of Truth in your heart, you will be blessed. Though you may meet various trials and sufferings, you will have the joy and peace of Jesus in your heart. Yet you must endure to the end, like Jesus.

Do not think keeping the Law is burdensome. It is not. LORD considered king David having done no wrong other than the incident of Uriah. One wrong in a man's whole life! LORD is merciful, would not be fault-finding, and would not condemn the guiltless, therefore, you should have firm confidence in Him. Knowing this, we should not have a burdensome feeling in keeping the Laws and Commandments. (Ask yourself : would LORD consider this guilty ?)

When you know you haven't broken LORD's Laws, you will have GREAT confidence, just like a law-abiding citizen who knows the policeman would never arrest him. No matter what philosophical talk others may bombard onto you, no matter how dangerous the outside situation would be, no matter how much temptations are there to lure you, you would still have confidence. This is true only if you hold fast Jesus and LORD's teachings. Those who do not keep the Laws will have no confidence when faced with dangerous, life-threatening situations.

Moreover, you MUST study logic, which is very easy to master, and will give you a clear and logical mind. LORD is TRUTH. Personally, I hope you would study more Mathematics, those Cauchy-Integral Theorem, and the like, in Complex Analysis, etc. They are beautiful truths, and will give you a hint of Who LORD is - the one who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Lastly, I recommend the Book of Mormon to those who listen to me. Though the translator of that book, Joseph Smith, did much wrong, yet that book is a true historical record of Maya people (for the period 600 B.C. to 420 A.D.), as relics filmed by National Geographic, BBC, and other documentaries correlate well with the description in that book. That book contains many small books written by Maya people for that period 600 B.C. to 420 A.D., and the Maya people were from the tribe of Joseph, from Israel. (but do not join Church of Latter-Day-Saints, you join it at your own risk.)

I may be reached in talk-group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Book-Of-Mormon-Truth

OR another Quran talk-group,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quran-l

Wu Siu Yan


[*] Maya Map
[*] Maya relics (photos on the Internet, just one site, there are many other similar sites.)


WORK FOR IT, WAIT FOR IT

If someone gives you Microsoft's Office, does it mean you are proficient in using Word, Excel, Powerpoint ?

Having the software doesn't imply proficiency.

Same is true for those who believe in Jesus. Once one truly turns to Jesus, and repents, he/she will be given a new heart, a new spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the same spirit in Jesus' heart.

But that doesn't mean he/she would be Jesus-like immediately.

Jesus : "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of GOD is preached, and everyone enters it violently". [Luke 16:16] (Note : John = John the Baptist)

It means teachings of GOD is completed after Jesus came, as teachings of Jesus = teachings of LORD, and that Jesus is the last prophet (NOT Mohammed). Also one must do the teachings of Jesus diligently in order to enter the Kingdom of GOD. Work for it, wait for it.

Lazy one will be spewed out. (see [Revelation 3:15-19])

Therefore to be Jesus-like, you must do the teachings of Jesus ("Sermon on the Mount", etc), and do it day after day, and persist even if you meet opposition and harassment. Then one day, you will be Jesus-like.

Also, Jesus told us that whatever we prayed, we would obtain. For example, if you want to be an civil engineer, to build bridges, roads, reservoirs, .... You just pray to LORD and you will receive the "software" to be an engineer. But you still have to work for it (learn, study), and wait for it. Much like you have to read manual, and practise it, to make Microsoft's Office a powerful tool to you.

If you do not have Microsoft's Office, you simply cannot do word processing, database, presentation on your computer, even if you study the manuals.

Wu Siu Yan

P.S. [Revelation 3:15-19]

Jesus : "I know your works : you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or not! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent." [Revelation 3:15-19]


Why the Early MOrmons were persecuted

Joseph Smith and those in the highest echelon set up "Danites" at an very early stage. They were Secret Alliance in a church that condemns secret alliance.

The persecution of the early Mormon arose partly because of the Danites. They did evil work in the dark, unknown to other Mormons. If you read the autobiography of John D. Lee, you will know their dirty work.

Another reason was their plundering of other's property after Salt Sermon.

The only theme in both the Bible and the BOM is

KEEP THE LAW => BLESSING;
BREAK THE LAW => CURSE

How could they not be cursed - they had plundered the goods of many.

They had broken not only the Laws of GOD, but the Laws of the United States.

Wu Siu Yan


Jesus is the Last Prophet

Even since Jesus came, there had been no prophet.

Jesus was the last prophet.

Every Christian church in the world holds Jesus as the last prophet except LDS.

Islam said Mohammed was the last prophet, not Jesus.

LDS preaches a Modern Day Prophet exists in every generation.

Those fallen angels that beguiled Mohammed were precisely those who beguiled JS. (please read Book of Enoch 1, Book of Enoch 2), and will beguile all those who think they are prophets nowadays.

Jesus came to wash the feet of others.

Teachings of LORD is completed after Jesus came, as teachings of Jesus = teachings of LORD.

Jesus himself plainly said, : "The Law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of GOD is preached, and every one enters it violently." [Luke 16:16] That is to say, he is the final prophet. How could he not be, because he was GOD condescending to Earth in human form, in a certain sense.

Anyone who considers himself a prophet, and not a servant to believers, has fallen already, and will never enter the New Heaven and New Earth, unless he/she repents and turns away from his/her error.

The "Modern Day Prophet" expects other to follow him blindly, and not allowing the Christians to follow their conscience which is guided by the Spirit of Truth, which is a grace to all believers of Jesus.

Christian should follow and cleave to LORD and Jesus only, not any human. "Following any human = trusting in the arm of flesh", teaching from our beloved brother David Whitmer.

Anyone who blasphemes David Whitmer, accusing him that his book is only to draw people to his Church, is the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and will have no forgiving till eternity.

Wu Siu Yan


Bible is the eternal plummet that all teachings must be measured up to be accepted

In whatever books that may appear in the future, none may contradict teachings in the Bible.

Bible is the plummet, eternal plummet.

BOM, as it agrees with the teachings in the Bible, can be accepted.

Wu Siu Yan


No even one Achan, one law breaker may be allowed in a congregation, how much more the "Danites", those lawless Secret Alliance in a church, would affect the whole church

XXXX,

No prophet came after John was from the mouth of Jesus.

Jesus : "The Law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of GOD is preached, and every one enters it violently." [Luke 16:16]

The teachings of LORD is completed when LORD condescended to Earth in human form.

Therefore all that remains for us to do is to learn and do the teachings diligently (or violently) to enter eternal life.

I have quoted [Luke 16:16] many times, and I just could not understand why you said that I hadn't quote sayings in the Bible to support "Jesus is the last prophet".

The reason I said about John D. Lee was because of your argument with XXXX. You said that the early Mormons were cursed. I too think they were cursed. But they suffered because of a small group of evil people who broke LORD's Laws, but others did not know, and did not kick them out. So they suffered as a whole. Compare this with Achan in Joshua.

Wu Siu Yan


About Blaspheming the Holy Spirit

The teachings of LORD and of Jesus are very few, e.g. "kindness, mercy, graciousness, slow to anger, steadfast love, faithfulness, forgiving, jealous against evil/iniquity, justice, honesty, uprightness, humility, meekness, lowliness, righteousness, pure as a child, humble as a child, serving others (wash the feet of others), ... "

Most are already taught to us in the Old Testament, except those "return and become like a child, humble like a child, wash the feet of others, ..." those from the mouth of lord Jesus, LORD's only Son.

Therefore teachings of LORD are completed after Jesus.

Any new teachings to come, e.g. books by the lost tribes, Nephites' large plates, Laban's plates, ..., or the many books to come, must not contradict teachings already in the Bible to be accepted.

About blaspheming holy spirit => no forgiving till eternity was from the Gospel, from the mouth of lord Jesus. About applying it to blaspheming David Whitmer is my personal opinion, as I hold brother David Whitmer a man full of the holy spirit.

Have you read his book "An Address to all believers of Christ", in which he talked about holy spirit - "the spirit that would love even his enemies"?

Wu Siu Yan


Standard Ways used by Chinese Christians to distinguish between Holy Spirit and Devilish Spirits who pretend to be the Holy Spirit

There are angels in this world, both good and bad, (since angels have freewill). They can all speak to mankind.

When the evil-spirits speak to mankind, they would say they are the Holy Ghost, and would never tell them they are those evil-spirits.

There are numerous incidents of demons deceiving people, and I quote one incident from Singapore.

A person who was responsible for a Church in Singapore had dreams. In the dream, someone claimed to be from LORD told him to fire the preacher. He obeyed and got a new preacher. Again, he dreamed and was told to fire him too. He obeyed too. But this went on, and he became suspicious and discussed with his friends. He then knew he was tricked.

I heard spirits' voices too, and they all claimed to be the Holy Ghost. I never believe such and I use 2 criteria to test

  1. Jesus : "You will know them by their fruits." [Matthew 7:15-18]

  2. Jesus : "He who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber." [John 10:1]

    (i.e. LORD would always use lawful and right means to do things. Anything not lawful nor right nor exposable to light would usually be from demons).



I once asked a preacher in Hong Kong : "Suppose some spirit speaks to you, and claims himself to be the Holy Ghost, would you believe what he tells you ? "

He replied that

  1. Is that teaching contrary to Bible teachings ?

  2. Is your spirit troubled because of that teaching ? (those who really walk Jesus' teachings will feel unease over strange teachings, just as many early Mormons felt unease over "celestial marriage", or polygamy.)

  3. Consult with your fellow brothers and sisters of Christ.

Joseph Smith introduced polygamy. Why did he introduce polygamy ? Because he saw an angel and the angel plainly told him to do that or else would kill him. (Hence Joseph Smith married many young Mormons secretly.)

Nicolaus, one of the seven chosen by Peter and the first Church, [Acts 6:5], introduced "free love" (i.e. free sex), and those who followed him are called "Nicolaitans" [Revelation 2:15]. The Nicolaitans claimed that Nicolaus had received a revelation from God to practice "free love."

Therefore, be careful with all spirits or even angels. Bad angels would disguise themselves under sheep's clothes, and appear as angels of LORD. Watch their "fruits" - good fruit ? bad fruit ? and we can make out which is which.

WATCH OUT! NEVER BE PROUD NOR CONCEITED

Wu Siu Yan